03 Recognising & Ordaining Apostles

So then, I think taking the conversation forward: who recognizes an apostle, and how do they recognize them? You know, one of the questions that goes with that is: who by nature should be recognizing things in the church? Who is, in a sense, at the front and watching? Who has the eagle-eyed vision, generally speaking, or should in the church? You'd have to say it would be apostles—in churches, elders, leaders.

So it should be recognized by leaders first, because the leaders, if they're good leaders, will be recognizing those things. It shouldn't be sort of a groundswell of public opinion, and then the leaders think, "Okay, well, we didn't really see it, but I suppose so." You know, we're not dealing with that level. This is God's household.

So leaders should recognize it first. And then I would say a call of God in terms of an apostolic call shouldn't be a shock. It shouldn't be, "Oh, geez, we didn't think that was—that's the last guy suspected." Yeah, yeah, it can work like that in the world. You might have business or certain things that function that way, but the church—you should be able to see things.

Even when the first deacons were chosen, they said to them, "Choose men who are known to be so." We shouldn't be dealing with major surprises. It should be something that is recognized by leaders, which is actually—the leaders are the gatekeepers in the church.

Recognizing Apostles Through Grace and Fruit

But that recognition should make sense, I think. Some scriptures on that: you go to Ephesians 4:7, where it says, "For grace was given to each one according to the measure of Christ's gift." And later on again, Christ gave gifts. And as Romans 12 would say as well, with any office or gift, there has to be—if there's grace on an individual to walk in a calling, there's evidence of that grace. There's some type of fruit. There's outward evidence.

And so, as was mentioned, it would be leaders, even other apostles, that would recognize that. But there'd be a general witness in the group of leaders that this person has emerged, so to speak, and we recognize that. You find examples of that in Scripture.

The one is, for example, let's look at 1 Corinthians 9:2, where Paul says, "You know that, actually, if to others I'm not an apostle, but at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord." And he's appealing to them. He's saying to them, "You can recognize me as an apostle," as opposed to these false apostles that were going around the Corinthian church, ministering, claiming to be apostles. He says, "No, no, no, I'm a true apostle because the evidence of what I've done is seen in the church, and you recognize that. You recognize."

And it's interesting: he says, "To others I'm not an apostle." So the reality is that not everyone might recognize an Andrew or Brad or Ryan or Jonathan to be an apostle, but we do because we have seen the fruit of their labor.

For example, my context being in—in Josh Jen being on Andrew's team for many, many years—over 20 years I've been working with him, and I am the fruit, in many ways, of his apostleship, so to speak, because he's laid in the foundations of Christ. And I've seen the leaders that have gone through that, that have impacted nations, and I've been part of that process.

The Church’s Witness in Recognizing Apostles

So, in one sense, recognition happens through the church as a witness. And you take it one step further, as there should be a recognition from prophets and teachers. You look at Acts 13, that when Paul and Barnabas were set apart to plant churches and preach the gospel—but actually, in Acts 14, they get called apostles for the first time—and it says the prophets and the teachers gathered, and they were the ones who set them apart, as the Holy Spirit said.

So it's a holistic approach, I think, as Sean mentioned earlier, in that these things aren't easy to talk about because there's an intangibility here. Yes, and there's a trusting God, and there's an entrusting ourselves to the Lord's ways. You know, sometimes we just want it to be much more clear-cut, but there is an ability in leaders to call it, and the church needs that. It needs leaders to actually recognize apostles, but they are calling it based on what has actually been evident already and what has been reliable.

And I find when we work together, we trust leaders, we work together, we find a—

Witness, and we—and the church—actually do move forward. You start to piece it together. You know, this is exactly right. We're in God's will. Our safety has always been our values, one of team. We—we wouldn't release anyone into any office and recognize unless there's a sense of team. And so, while there's individuals who would say, “I think there's a call on that individual's life. There's fruit to that,” and, you know, could be one of our leaders saying that, our apostolic leaders, like an Andrew, saying, “I see this on an individual,” but then we get a sense of the witness of the Spirit as our leadership team: “Yes, we agree with this, and we see the track record.” And so it's very much a rigorous process in some ways to see that.

How Apostles Are Held Accountable

And it's a beautiful thing, actually. It's a very safe process. And I think that helps if we have to take this to the next level of, like, “Okay, but then who helps by holding these people accountable?” What, you know, now we have apostles. Now we have guys who are recognized, people who are qualified, people who are walking with great authority by what we're describing, by what they do, who they are. Now, what do we do when we have apostles? Are they rogue? Are they doing their own thing? How does that dynamic work?

Yeah, it's one of the big questions of accountability, and especially in the age where we have such a spectacular fall of leaders, the fall from grace of men that we put our trust in. You know, these are good men; they're reliable men, and then there's some scandal in the church and they fall.

And so I think we were very reluctant to give our hearts over to really honor and to follow our leaders, as Hebrews 13 says: “Submit to your leaders. Obey the authority.” So we'd want to first know, “But are you first accountable?” And we want all the checks and balances in place. And while, on the one side, we can look at that, now, I think there should be certain frameworks in place, and we do have that, actually. But at the same time, you know, we're not working within a business model, and that you have all the procedures and you can tick all the boxes. But if someone wants to sin, or if there's a shadow of their character, they will find a way to do so.

And so we must be careful not to say, “Well, we put this—we've legislated that, and we've put that in place, and now therefore they're accountable.” Accountability is a heart issue. And that's why, you know, it's one of mutual submission, one to another, out of reverence for Christ, Ephesians says. And so it starts with that, that we want to make sure all our leaders model mutual submission.

Accountability to Scripture and Other Leaders

Where there's, for example, accountability, I think it would look like, on different levels. I think on the most basic level where accountability would start would be on the Word of God. Is that our leaders, our apostles, and along with all the other leaders, accountable to Scripture? So we would test them according to Scripture. You know, is what they're saying aligning up with the truth of—as we would understand Scripture in church history—in terms of an orthodox, evangelical understanding of basic truth? And those are the riverbanks. That's the canon. That's the standard for us in many ways, and we build healthy churches on that. So that would be very important as one, I think.

In the same way, as leaders recognize an apostolic gifting, they should be the first to notice things. And so there's an accountability there. For example, Paul noticed very quickly what Peter was doing with regards to withdrawing from the Gentiles when the Jews were in town, and he called him out. So there'll be a natural outworking there where people with apostolic graces, or apostles, will hold each other to account in a way.

But then I would add, in God's way, it should be that an apostle is accountable to everybody. If you think what Paul did with the Galatians, he actually writes in Galatians 1:8, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preach to you”—and he's talking to the whole church—“let him be under God's curse.” What is he doing? He's opening himself to them examining the gospel. He continues to judge himself by the same standards he expects them to believe, not saying, “Well, I'm an apostle; you are not. You're under my authority.”

And so I think that's critical. If we lose that, we lose the beauty of the authority that we see in God's kingdom, where we actually submit to each other and we serve one another and we walk in the way of the cross, not the way of the world.

You might have said, half-jokingly earlier, we were in the world of business and leadership, and that perhaps there's the CEO of many companies. And in some ways, the CEO is accountable to the shareholders or the board or the customers, but they do have the final say of what is the direction. And if an apostle views himself like that, I think that's very, very dangerous.

Humility as a Qualification for Apostolic Leaders

You know, apostolic leaders have to remain humble, and I think that, fundamentally, is the primary qualification of a church leader, a servant of the Lord. 1 Peter 5:1-4 says:

“Therefore I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that is to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.”

And I think that's our guide. So, as we look at what do we look for and how do we walk with the apostolic leaders: humble men who lead by example, who never want to put themselves above the church, but with the church. So, as we've seen that shared and mutual submission, and the ways that they serve, then we walk with them. And if they're in error, they need to be able to be corrected, and we need to guard each other's backs in that way.

Some of the best men and women in my life have been the people who are close enough to me, who are close enough to be able to pick up the phone or to send an email or a text message and say, “Hey, I don't think that's right.” And where there's issues of sin or wrong patterns, to speak into that—not in judgment, but in a way of brothers in arms or sisters in arms who recognize, “Hey, we're in the same game here, and we're in the same battle, and we're wanting the same glory of God, and we're wanting the same thing.”

So there's a wonderful place for apostolic leaders and leaders in the church to say to one another, “What a privilege it is for us to lead together and to serve God together. And we don't have to carry this burden on our own. Actually, there are other great leaders and other people with grace to speak into us and call out.”

And also, the whole church—the whole church—should feel empowered to be part of that, to say, “Are we walking according to the Word of God?” And if not, we submit ourselves to the Word of God. And it's a beautiful picture of how we can move forward together with confidence and with safety and with great fruitfulness. Amen.

Cultivating Accountability and Openness in Church Leadership

Preach. And look, guys, if I come back and I'm saying something different, call me out. Hold me to account. So, I do think we see it—well, we see it in Scripture. I can say from Oxygen Life, the church I'm part of, Brad, who leads the church, I have seen him in the last few days. I've seen him sit with someone and own up to a particular way he did something that he regretted. He regretted the way he had spoken. I don't think he'd mind me mentioning it, just that he wished he could have spoken in a better way. He really owned it, apologized for it. The person he was speaking to wasn't even a person with a leadership in the church, actually, and he fully owned it. He was letting the person speak into his life. I've seen that actually in operation among us.

It's not easy. It's not easy to make yourself open to anybody to point out something wrong in you. And I think what will happen is, if somebody points out something wrong, somebody will get perspective on it. They'll take it to leaders: What do you think? But certainly, we should never be in the habit of just cutting off any voice into our lives, whether it's from a child. It should be able to be anybody. I think it goes down to, again, we're talking about heart issues here fundamentally. And someone watching this might not want that; they would give us the rule. But I also want to just make sure we're rooted in Scripture here.

How the New Testament Apostles Practised Team Accountability

So we are speaking about cultures of accountability and being approachable, but remember that we want to model ourselves as a New Testament church. And so the apostles in the New Testament never operated in isolation. So I think probably that question of, “Well, who holds them accountable?” in some ways was a bit of a moot question, probably because Paul always was traveling with others. He had a team around him.

There seems to be a culture in the early church where, in Galatians 2, Peter is seen as effectively sinning. He's showing prejudice, and he's not eating with the Gentiles anymore, but he's siding with the Jews. And Paul challenges him. This is an apostle challenging another one. So, you know, it might be that there was that culture in place.

And so we do go back to Scripture, and we look at examples of these men working in team. And that's the way we are. We do have the culture of team. We've been in contexts where we will challenge and ask the hard questions or disagree. And what I've enjoyed about the apostolic team we work with is the guys are approachable and they are reasonable. And if we lose that, we would be in great danger as a movement.

Safety Checks When Leaders Disagree

So what about a situation where, like, you as an elder in a congregation have been struggling, where you're not feeling heard from an apostle? How would you go about that? Let's say, you know, in our context, where there's a disagreement on our team with Andrew, who leads our team, and Josh Genen, where there's a disagreement and one of the elders on team does not feel heard—and this has happened in the past—then our culture is one where Andrew, we escalate that. And so Andrew then appeals to an outside authority, because as a church, and even Andrew, he's under authority in the sense that he's on a team that also does speak into his life.

And so we've had that, where we get an external input to look at things from an objective point of view, where those leaders can feel heard rather than just having to take Andrew's word for it, so to speak. So there's those safety checks and balances that we do have in place as a culture within us.

Unity from the Heart, Not Just Formal Rules

Yeah, and those safety checks and balances are not a function of just a constitution on paper. They're rooted around the question, “How could we serve the Lord if we're not united?” So often, what we're looking for—and, you know, beneath these questions of accountability, I think there's a world of backstory that people have been through. Many of people listening to this now could, I'm sure, list situations and scenarios they've been part of where people have just become a law unto themselves. And we become very afraid of that.

And the question then isn't, “How are we going to formalize this as part of a contract that we're never going to let this happen again?” The question is, “How can I be part of a”

Movement, a field of churches where I see a living out of a unity, no matter what, we will do this. Um, because legalities, you can get around them, and you can find your way that you don't have to do them. But when the heart is just really—every heartbeat is for unity before the Lord—we can rely upon the approach that we take.

Humility, Submission, and Walking in Authority

Yeah, that's beautiful, because you look at Philippians 2 that speaks of this, you know, that you'd be of one mind and heart, purpose, et cetera. But undergirding that is actually a humility, you know, how we consider one another. And I know, you know, being within us as a movement, I think one of the things I love about who we are, 4/12, is that there's a deep desire to serve the Lord and understand the value of submission, godly submission, that works from the top all the way down, or from the front all the way back, so to speak.

Because we see Christ—I mean, you know, in the very nature, being equal with God, He became nothing, Scripture says. And the value of that—we do come under authority in order to walk in authority. You need to have that. And it's the most attractive, compelling thing when we see it lived out. And it's not perfect, you know. We're broken, frail human beings. Even apostles aren't infallible. There's only One who’s infallible, is Christ. And we're all doing our best to follow Him, and that's why we need one another to be in relationship.

But I think that the experience of unity comes through a deep sense of, “I honor you in the Lord. I see Christ in you. I want to draw from you and learn from you. I don't think I know enough that I can simply do it on my own.” We're a body, and we do that together.

Yeah, and I think even Paul's heart, even as he conveys—even when he teaches about correcting somebody else, even while you go to correct them, be aware that you yourself can fall in the same pit. And I think that that is something that we've come to see and value, is that not only do I want this for people's sake—you know, we don't want this so that we're accountable—we have this deep desire to be accountable for the Lord because it's good for us.

Seeing Apostolic Leaders Through the Character of Christ

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the challenge of looking and judging a movement from afar, if you have only seen us through media, you get a very warped perspective of us as a movement and of the leaders in the movement and the apostles in the movement, because it seems that they're the men on the stage who are strutting their stuff. But in reality, it's not like that.

And I would encourage you to come and check us out and to join our next conference in our leader time, you know, if you're a leader, to do that, because hopefully we would model something of the beauty of Christ, who we lift up as Christ. We're a movement of saints that has the Chief Apostle, in whom we follow the personal Christ. And if someone who is with us and comes among us, they need to leave saying, “But what a wonderful Savior you have,” not, “Wow, your leaders are so skillful.”

Yeah. And so, landing this conversation, which I know for me, and hopefully for you guys, has been incredibly helpful around understanding the apostle, understanding the qualifications, how they're recognized, how they function, what they do, I think it's been really helpful for me and hopefully for you guys as well.

And we have so many other resources that we'd love to point you towards. Andrew's written a manual on the apostolic and the apostle and fields and understanding, and there's other resources online that we'd love to point you towards.

And then, of course, one of the things we've spoken about a lot is, in church, there is eldership, and there has been being approachable leaders. So please, if you have questions, take them to your leaders. Ask them for clarity on some of these questions. I think the important part is being able to discuss it and not just come to conclusions and assumptions based on what you read everywhere else.

So, cool. Thanks for discussing this.

Great. Awesome. Thank you.