Continuationism or Cessationism?

So I'm told in the Bible to earnestly desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially the power gifts. This has not got to do with character. Yes, the Bible talks about character, but this is desiring the gifts. And 1 Corinthians 12:31, “Eagerly desire the greater gifts.” But cessationists and militant cessationists say that we shouldn't desire this. And I would argue that they are in rebellion against the very Bible that they're saying they're upholding because they're actually rejecting the very Scriptures.

Welcome to another video that we're putting together, which we feel is actually something that's essential for the body of Christ today. There are many winds of doctrine blowing around that are confusing many believers, and there's a massive trend at the moment, especially on social media, to attack the charismatic church, to attack the idea that the Holy Spirit still works, that there are still signs and wonders and miracles. And this isn't a side issue.

This isn't a peripheral issue. This is actually a central issue to how we relate to Christ, how we relate to one another, and how Jesus builds His church. And so we'll be touching on some things in this conversation that may be controversial; many people may disagree with. And so what we would urge you to do is listen carefully with an open heart and then search the Scriptures as the Bereans did to see that what we're saying is not justification from extrabiblical sources but is actually rooted in what Jesus promised His church would look like.

So, Andrew, why is this burning on your heart so much at the moment?

The Growing Rejection of the Holy Spirit

There's been a massive surge or swing in the body of Christ around, obviously, normally guys that are more Calvinist than they bend. Not that all Calvinists are there. But a trend which has now become quite militant and aggressive in its assault against the person of the Holy Spirit and against the—when I would say the person of the Holy Spirit. No, we would never do that. But obviously, nor did the Jews say that they were fighting God when Christ was there. They would never acknowledge that in their mind they weren't doing it, but in practice they actually were.

And so, for me, there is something happening in our generation that is deeply concerning to me because Jesus spoke a lot, and the Bible talks a lot, about the Holy Spirit and what He will do in the life of the church. And, you know, as I was looking at Israel in the Old Testament, it's such a sad, such a sad story as you read this consistent rejection of the Father in the Old Testament. God wants to be God over His people. He wants to have His reign, His rule and reign. And Israel thinks they're serving Him, but actually end up fighting Him.

Rejecting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

And so I think Samuel and many prophets—1 Samuel 8:7—God says, “They have not rejected you.” And He's talking here to the prophet that's going to ordain Saul, whose name was Samuel.

“Samuel. But they have rejected Me from being king over them.”

And so God in the Old Testament is rejected. The Father is rejected in the Old Testament. When Jesus comes, the Bible tells us in John 1:11, He came unto His own, and His own rejected Him. And so you see the rejection of the Father, the rejection of the Son, and then in the New Testament and in the end times, I believe we see a rejection increasingly of the Holy Spirit. And I think this escalates towards the end. And this is spoken of specifically in the Bible.

I think in 2 Timothy 3:5, Timothy is here being warned by Paul as he's looking forward to the end-time church. It says this is end times. Mark this: These things are going to happen. And Paul ends this long list of things, and the last one on the list is that there'll be a people with a form of Christianity but a denying of the power thereof. And that word “form” in the Greek is morphosis. It kind of speaks of appearance or semblance or even formula, but actually a denying of the power thereof.

And so it's got all the outward trappings. It's got all the right language. It's got everything that looks right. It looks like it's in the same form, but there's something intrinsic missing in the system.

That is dunamis, the power. And that word dunamis is the exact word Jesus spoke of in Acts 1:8 when He says, “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you.” And there’s no coincidence there. There is a sense that the very Spirit is the One who will give the church power. And power includes gifts. It includes the supernatural. And we’ll look at some of these things as we go on.

And so, for me, there is a rejection, I believe, in our generation of the third person of the Trinity. And it’s ultimately man’s ultimate rebellion against God, which, even if you look at the Antichrist, 666, it’s man coming to his fullness. And I believe in each of these cases, it wasn’t the world rejecting God. It was the people of God rejecting God.

And so I believe we’re in a time where the true church and the false church are emerging, and we’re starting to see the lines drawn clearer and clearer. But the false church, I would say, is starting to attack more and more the true church. And so we want to defend the truth because, without the Spirit of God, I believe we actually are having a form, and we’re not living in the life and the power and the dynamics of how God intended the church to work.

So, I can imagine some of the listeners already kind of, “Whoa, I’m coming out the gate strong.” Totally.

Totally. Well, let’s just unpack two things you said there because I think it’s important that we help people understand the heart of what you say. First is, as Solomon said, there’s nothing new under the sun. Yeah. And what we’re seeing in terms of a rejection of the third person of the Trinity is just what’s happened throughout history. In the Old Testament, the prophets were rejected. They were stoned. They were killed.

In the New Testament, we see that the religious rulers rejected John the Baptist. They rejected Christ. They rejected the apostles. And now you’re saying there’s a rejection of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Are Charismatic Churches the True Church?

Yes. But then you said true church and false church. Are you implying then that all the charismatic church is the true church and all of the evangelical or non-charismatic church is the false church? Is that what you’re saying?

Great question. I believe that there are people in churches that don’t have the full power of the Holy Spirit. In other words, they have a part but not the fullness of it, and that there are genuine Christians in churches.

Much like I would say, I think one of the conversations we’re going to have is around the Catholic Church, and I would say the Catholic system is flawed but that there are genuine Christians in the Catholic system. Likewise, I think that a church that doesn’t practice the gifts and the power and what I think is not teaching the truth of the Scriptures, I think they’re actually teaching a false form of Christianity.

That said, we’re saved by grace through faith. And so salvation is by faith. And so if you genuinely have a faith in Jesus, I believe that you can—you’re a Christian. You don’t have to speak in tongues. And I think that’s some of the excesses of the hyper-Pentecostals. You know, if you don’t speak in tongues, you’re not saved. I don’t think that’s the case.

In fact, I don’t even think that every—that the only evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit in a person’s life or the baptism of the Spirit is speaking in tongues. I think there are many different kinds of gifts, but there should be some dynamic of power, of something. There should be some evidence of a transformative power.

Exactly. Exactly. And not even just transformative. It’s transformative, but it’s also the supernatural dynamic of God among His people, doing exponential things through His body, which is the church.

Believers Who Have Not Received the Fullness of the Spirit

And so for me, yeah, there’s definitely believers in there. And maybe my thinking—it’s debated. I think it’s about Acts 21, where Paul is—he comes to Ephesus and he meets a bunch of disciples. Is it Acts 21?

Acts 19.

He meets a bunch of disciples, and he asks them—and they’re disciples—and I know most people say, “Well, they were disciples of John,” but actually the Bible—he says, “Did you receive the Spirit when you believed?”

When you believed, exactly.

And so the fact that they’re not called

Disciples of John, which is normal. These are people that are believers, much like Apollos. As a young Christian, he was a believer, but he didn't properly understand. And so Paul prays with them, and they receive the Holy Spirit. And in receiving the Holy Spirit, they actually do speak in tongues, which is one of the evidences of the Holy Spirit.

Attacking the Holy Spirit and Blasphemy

And so I think it's possible, likewise, that there are genuine believers that are living in malnourished churches that are not bringing them into the fullness of what it is. That said, there is a new trend now amongst some of those groups of becoming militant. Yeah. And in their militancy, they are attacking the Holy Spirit. And I would go so far as to say the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is calling something that the Spirit of God is doing and calling it Beelzebub or Satan.

And I have heard some very significant cessationists using that language. And I know people debate what is the baptism. If you just take it as it stands, to call something that the Holy Spirit does the devil is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I know people say it's got to do with salvation, but that's you're reading into it.

And so I think there is a real danger that, as the Jews rejected Christ, so these are rejecting the Spirit and causing others to come into bondage. And I think, well, Timothy is told in 2 Timothy, as we looked at, having a form without the power. The end of that is, “Have nothing to do with them.”

And I believe we need to actually, as genuine Christians who know the fullness of these things, reject these as being heretics, because I think they're doing damage to the third person of the Trinity.

Avoiding Charismatic Excesses and Hyper-Charismania

So we're also not saying every church that teaches the gifts of the Spirit is genuine. There are also counterfeit excesses. There's unhealthy charismatic expression as well.

That's unfortunate. This isn't—we're not being tribalist here.

No. No. I mean, one of the terrible things that's happened in the charismatic or Pentecostal churches is excess, and often untempered with good Bible exegesis. There is a sense that people have run wild and rampant and done stupid things, silly things, which have actually given the enemy an opportunity to slander and to accuse. And so we're certainly not speaking about the excesses that we see—hyper-charismania.

We're talking about good Bible-centered, Bible-based gifts, because the Bible has a lot to say about the Holy Spirit and how He works and how we, the church, need to remain in Him within the Scriptures. And so we never want to go beyond the Bible, but the Bible tells us that these things should happen. And so if they're not happening, we're not actually remaining in the Bible.

Degrees of Cessationism and the Need for Spiritual Gifts

And within what we would call cessationism, there are different degrees. That's what you've just touched on. So I would say—and we've even worked with churches where they would, in theory, believe in the Holy Spirit but would be functionally cessationist.

I mean, I think it's very, very difficult. You see, Christianity—I know it's by faith. We say by faith alone, but it's not just faith. All the Reformers spoke about if there's genuine faith, there will be an outworking of works. And so works don't save us, but—and some of the works are righteousness and peace and joy, and becoming like Christ, sharing in His nature. But there is also being His body and functioning as His body, with every part playing its bits. And the Bible is very clear to say that there should be gifts flowing, because Christ carried the gifts of the Holy Spirit as He ministered.

And so, in some ways, these churches are massively deficient and not reflecting Christ properly, and believers are not actually walking in the power of the Spirit. They have a form of religion. They have a—but they're lacking the power.

And I think, as the times come towards the end, these lines are becoming sharper. I think there is a sense that, you know, God says, “Sometimes, for a while, I overlooked, but now I'm commanding men everywhere, everywhere, to repent.” I believe that these lines are narrowing and that there is actually an almost a tipping point that's happened in the church right now, where we need to see good biblical, good biblical reflections of the Holy Spirit.

And it's interesting. I was just off the top of my head thinking—Arty Kendall had this vision, and I'm—

Just—I haven't looked it up recently, but I remember reading something along the lines of that the present charismatic movement is dead, but that God is going to raise up something new that would actually reflect a better reflection of the Word and the Spirit. And I think there's something in that. I do think that we're needing to see a more healthy reflection of the gifts of the Spirit and the power of the Spirit in the charismatic church. But I don't think you should have a charismatic church and a cessationist church.

I think a church that's rooted properly in Christ, properly in Christ, reflecting the fullness of Him, has to have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, has to have the power of the Spirit. You're a malnourished—you know, you might say a person in a sick bed is a person, a human being, but they're not functioning like they should. And I think it's impossible to function as we should because Jesus said, "Better that I go, because if I go, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will receive power to be My witnesses." I don't think it's possible for the church to be properly what He intends it to be without the proper application of the Holy Spirit.

The Fruit and Gifts of the Holy Spirit

Yeah. And, of course, cessationists would say, "Well, we do believe in the Holy Spirit." Yeah, and we believe in the fruit of the Spirit. And isn't the fruit more important than the gifts? I would say both are equally important.

Well, that's a false dichotomy, right?

Exactly. Exactly. It is. And that's the danger. And again, you know, the fruit of the Spirit is just being a good person, really.

Right. Can I be honest with you? I know Mormons that are really good people. To be a good person just takes self-discipline. I know unbelievers that give money to the poor, and so I do believe that the Holy Spirit empowers us to righteousness, to share in Christ's nature. But to be a good person isn't that hard. Religious Jews were good by man's standards. Again, no one's good enough to come into heaven. Even spiritual believers, we're saved by grace through faith. But goodness is easy. Power is impossible. And I think we need to see churches filled with the power of God. We know Mormons put us to shame very often in how righteous they are, actually, in how they live.

And so, yeah, I think we need to come back to letting God define that. We need—we need—we need to be righteous by the power of the Holy Spirit. We need to reflect Christ and share in His nature. But at the same time, I mean, Paul is clear that part of the power of the gospel is transformation.

The Gospel Demonstrated in the Spirit’s Power

One hundred percent. He even says, "I didn't come to you with wise and persuasive words," which we would argue is preaching, "but it was a demonstration of the Spirit's power." And so again, you know, even this thing of just preaching alone, I'm like, well, the New Testament, we see signs, wonders, and miracles were often what preceded preaching, what opened the door for preaching.

Acts—but right through Paul's preaching, there's miracles and people coming to faith. But today, we've relegated all those things out of the church, or we've ended up with a form with doctrine without power.

So, let me be a little bit naughty then. If God no longer speaks prophetically today, then what are preachers doing? Surely then, all they should do is read Scripture and let Scripture speak, because surely preaching is me trying to unpack, explain, and explain.

And it's like I've always said: I don't want to listen to a preacher who doesn't believe he can hear from God.

That would be—

I know. I know. Well, that—I know. Well, I mean, that's a whole subject that I'd love to do as well, just in terms of how do we teach truth? And is it just through—because, like you say, it's so funny. I saw a church advertised, and their name was Bible Only Church of this area. And I'm like, that is ridiculous to say Bible-only church. That means no one's explaining, no one's looking at this, trying to explain the text. You just have to read the Bible.

If it's only because as soon as anyone starts to try and explain what the Bible's saying, they are interpreting it and painting a lens and teaching people how to hear it. And so it's really—it really is—yeah, we've got to come back to that point of—yeah. We're really arrogant in how we act.

Prophecy, the Closed Canon, and Hearing God’s Voice

Yeah. I—I don't know how much we'll get to unpacking various gifts of the Holy Spirit and manifestations of the Spirit, but if we start maybe just with—the prophetic, because I think that's one of the most contentious things at the moment. The argument is that the canon of Scripture is closed, so we don't need prophecy anymore. We can just go to the Bible. But just biblically, it seems to me Jesus said, “My sheep will hear My voice.”

Yes. In Acts 2, the hallmark, it seems, of the last days is that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all people, on all believers. And Acts prophesied, “And they will prophesy,” and Acts 2, “Your old men will dream dreams, visions.” And Acts 2 is really the last days, from Pentecost through till—so He doesn't say for a period apostles and prophets.

Exactly. Well, He—but, but—and so Scripture is the foundation. And I've heard people argue Acts isn't for us. It was just—it was just the start of the church, so it's no relevance. And the Bible says all Scripture is God-breathed and it's useful.

Right.

So, yeah, it's—it's—it's very clever to try and ignore certain parts of the Bible because they don't fit your paradigm, and that's exactly what you're doing. You're ignoring the Scripture. You're ignoring the—when the Bible—and, to be honest, if you read Paul's letters, they mirror Acts perfectly, right? You have to write off half of Paul's letters, because all that Acts is doing is showing you the truth of Paul's letters and how it actually plays out. And so, again, you—you actually—you—you’re literally cutting up big chunks of the Bible to make this. And I've heard the argument that even the words of Jesus don't apply because they were spoken before He died, and it was all—but it's not—we're not using proof texts here.

Hearing God’s Voice and the Continuation of Prophecy

It seems to me that consistently through Scripture, particularly in the New Testament, “My sheep will hear My voice.” There will be signs and wonders. Paul's saying, “I desire—I wish you would all desire prophecy.” A spirit of wisdom and revelation, consistently. There is a—there is this thing. What now? How do we live life if God doesn't speak to us today?

Well, I mean, Jesus—Jesus is walking with the disciples, the—the letter, the living letter, and He says, “Better that I go,” in John 16:7, because if I go, I'll send Him to you, and He will remain on the earth. And so, you know, we've got this: He will remind you of all that I've said. He will—yeah, He—He—He will. I mean, He says in verse 13, “Whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you things that are to come.” What's that? That's prophecy. That's things that are to come. In other words, every generation needs to know what God is saying to that generation.

It's a bit like when you read your Bible. At the end of the first century, John writes the spirit of prophecy, and he prophesies to the seven churches. Those churches have pretty much got all Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They've got all Paul's letters. They've got Jude. They've got James. And they regard—we know Peter tells us that those letters are already regarded as Scripture.

He says that very clearly. And so there is a sense that the early believers already had the whole Bible except Revelation. And John prophesies, and he starts to speak specifically by the Spirit to the church, pulling the different portions of Scripture and applying them in prophecy, telling them, in a sense, what Jesus is saying to them. He will—and—and the Bible says it's exactly what He does. He'll—He'll speak what He hears.

And so the Spirit of God hears the Father in heaven: Look at the churches. And the elders are not applying the doctrines and the truths of the Scripture properly. And so they need, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church,” not what the Word says.

Because the Spirit highlights the Word and brings revelation about what is relevant. And believers who know the Bible and who listen to the Spirit see that—that when the two come together, we hear God, the living God, who's alive. You know, we—we live—we have a living God who speaks.

Why the Bible Alone Is Not the Whole Christian Experience

I—I marvel that people say, “We only have the Bible now. It's better.” And I'm like, in the Old Testament, they had the Bible, and they had angels appearing to them, and they had God manifesting in the flesh to them. But no, we've got it better because we only have the Bible. And I'm like, it's ridiculous. I want to live in the Old Testament because they had it better than we do. If that's the case, I want the Spirit of God, which Jesus promised to—

to remain with us to the very end, to the last days, to lead us and guide us and tell us what's to come and speak to us. And, you know, He said, "My sheep will hear My voice." It's, it's, it's hearing the voice of the living God. And yes, He can use the Bible, but the Bible speaks about us hearing the voice through nature, through creation, through so many things. And the one that we really need to hear is the Spirit. Because the Bible says in Romans 8:14, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." So you're going, "Oh, so it's not just Bible then. It's, it's not those that teach the Bible.

It's those that are led by the Spirit." Now, if you're led by the Spirit, I would argue you are going to be a Bible person and you're going to believe and hold to the truths of the Bible because you know all Scripture is God-breathed and useful, and we don't go beyond it. But there is a sense that, led by the Spirit and empowered by the Spirit, you'll see power when the Holy Spirit comes on you. And we see this, we see this in the early Christians. We see them—if you go look at Acts, which is the demonstration of what these things look like. Even Jesus is led by the Spirit into the wilderness. And you're going, the living Word gets led by the Spirit, but now we say we've got the dead Word and we don't need the Spirit. And I'm like, it's ridiculous.

And then in the early Christians, you see Philip, who's led by the Spirit to go to the road, and he meets the Ethiopian eunuch. And then the Spirit leads him there, and then the Spirit takes him away afterwards. And interestingly, he's not an apostle. He's not an apostle. He's just a believer.

Sola Scriptura and the Leading of the Holy Spirit

He's a deacon. Yeah. And so, we're going to make this clear. We're not denigrating Scripture. No, we're not subverting Scripture to prophecy or the Spirit. We honor Scripture by saying what we said because the Spirit will never contradict His own Word, 100%. And so this whole thing of sola scriptura, which is this, this Reformation idea of Bible alone—totally, surely, if it's Bible alone, the Bible tells us that we need to be led by the Spirit. That's, I mean, even this is a command in the New Testament. And I hate what modern theologians say: "Do not get drunk with wine." And it's Ephesians 5:18. "But be filled with the Spirit." Okay. Firstly, think that through. Why, why contrast it with drunk?

Drunk with wine. There is something supernatural that takes you beyond. If you then apply that Scripture to Acts, what happens when they were filled with the Spirit? Everyone thought they were drunk with wine. So you have to go, the Bible here is consistently saying the same thing. When the Spirit of God comes, there is some demonstration that looks strange. But now, if it's strange, it's not God because God would never do something strange. And then it says, "Be filled." And it's a command to Christians.

The Ongoing Command to Be Filled with the Spirit

So they say, you know, modern theologians, "Well, we are filled. For you to believe in God, you're already filled." And I'm like, well, then what's the point of telling me to be filled? And it's, it's the grammar there is ongoing. It's an ongoing present imperative. In other words, you need to continually seek to be filled, which is a, it's an ongoing thing. In other words, it's not like it happens once. So it could have been in the aorist tense, which would have then meant it happens once, or you already are filled. No, which is a corrective to some of the charismatics.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so there is a sense that we need to be consistently filled. And again, if we look at, let Scripture interpret Scripture, in Acts 2 they're filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues. In Acts 4:31, I think it's verse 31, they're being persecuted there. There is a sense they've lost a bit of their power. They're losing a bit of their thing. In some ways, I would argue they've probably leaked a little bit. Fear has overtaken faith. And so, they gather together to pray. Some of them are being persecuted. And they've gathered together to pray. And the Bible says very clearly, "And when they pray"—these are already Spirit-filled. There's the people at the same place. Peter's in this group.

Being Filled, Grieving, and Quenching the Spirit

Peter and the other apostles. And when they were gathered together, the place was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. The Spirit of God came on them again afresh, and they were filled again and again and again. And so you see this pattern in the Scripture, and then the Bible says, “Do not quench the Spirit.” And this is in 1 Thessalonians 5:19. Hang on. If we've all got the fullness of the Spirit and we can't lose that, then what is quenching? It means to extinguish. It literally means to put out. It's like there is a fire burning and I poured water on it and I put out the Spirit.

And this is the same word used consistently. The Bible speaks about hell, where the fire will never be quenched. Same word. Or in Matthew 12:20, “A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not quench.” What is quench? It's putting out the light. It's putting out the Spirit. So if we're told to be filled, we can grieve the Spirit. We can quench the Spirit. That tells me, and I'm commanded to continually seek to be filled in the Holy Spirit. In the early church, choose men who are known to be full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom when they chose their first deacons. I'm thinking to say that we all are just filled with the Spirit cuts against everything the Bible says.

And it's absolutely ridiculous. You want to say something?

Well, Scripture seems to indicate that we can only come into salvation by the— So, we all have the Spirit. Yes. But there's this other descriptive command and instruction and encouragement to be filled, to be energized, to be—and again, you know, you look at David in the Old Testament, and he is clearly saved, believes by faith, is walking with God. He has the Holy Spirit, and he says, “Don't take Your Spirit from me.” And so, you know, again, we have to look at the New Testament using similar language of quenching, putting out the Spirit's fire. There is a real sense for me that I can grieve the Spirit of God. I can choose to harden myself as they did in the rebellion. And so the warnings here for us are that we must remain in Him and be led by the Spirit. The sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit.

If you sow to the flesh, you can sow to the Spirit or you can sow to the flesh. If you sow to the Spirit, you will live. If you sow to the flesh, the Bible says you will die. And so again, you know, we have to realize that there is a real danger here of believers actually not persevering in the Holy Spirit and quenching His fire and losing their zeal, losing their—you know, the early—what is one of the churches in Revelation? “You've become lukewarm. You've lost what you had.”

And so for me there is a need for believers to be continually filled and to be filled with the dunamis power. And at times that experience will make us seem like we're a little bit strange, that there's a drunkenness coming over us or that, you know, we may be falling. And again, people—“Oh, if you fall, it's from the devil.” John falls down as one dead when he sees Jesus. The Old Testament is filled with the prophets who fall, who weep, who cry, who laugh. We need to come back to the Bible and let the Bible define that God sometimes will take us out of our comfortable formulas and bring us into a power that is beyond what our flesh can handle.

Scripture as the Final Authority

That's so good. And again, so let's just—I mean, I think practical handles can be useful. So Scripture is God's final authority. Everything is subject to Scripture.

Yeah. And one of the main accusations of cessationists is that charismatics believe in a revelation beyond Scripture.

That's now beyond Scripture.

Depends what you mean, right? It's never contradictory. But the difference, for example—many differences—but one of the differences between Christianity, as I understand it, and Islam is the followers of Islam follow a rule book.

Hearing God’s Voice Beyond Biblical Principles

Because, because there is not present, you've got to go back and say, “What did—what did Muhammad do?” We don't follow the Bible that way. And whilst the Bible is, again, 2 Timothy 3:16, it's useful for instruction, correction, righteousness, the Bible doesn't tell me what to do today. No. In terms of practical, I've got a practical decision. Lord, I've been given a job offer, 100 percent. Or, you know, how do I love my wife better? How do I discipline my child in this situation? How do I—there is a million things where there are biblical principles that can apply, but we go, we're living beyond principle. We're living in relationship, right? Totally, totally. It is relationship, not principle. And so if it's just a letter, then it's just principle. It's like a form of religion. But if it's a relationship, “My sheep will hear My voice.” Those sons are led by the Spirit of God.

And again, if we let the Bible tell us how that looks, how that plays out, again, we see Paul being led by the Spirit to preach in areas, having dreams and visions and prophetic words. A prophet comes to him and tells him he's going to go to Jerusalem and what's going to happen to him there.

This is exactly what Jesus said would happen when He said, “The Spirit will tell you of things yet to come.” You know, for them, those weren't yet written down. Now, we never add to the Bible. The Bible shows us the length and breadth of doctrine, but within doctrine, we have to apply it. And how does it apply in a scenario? I always, I always think of the Bible a bit like a map of a city. You can't go outside of the city. You can't go beyond the map. If you add to the map, you're in trouble. But within the map, where am I?

And what applies to me right now? And am I supposed to move from South Africa to America? Like Paul, am I supposed to go to Macedonia? “Yes, Lord, would You want me to?” And then he's resisted by the Spirit. But then he has a dream, and there is this dynamic of the early Christians, which we see in the Scripture, explaining exactly what the Bible says will happen practically: the Spirit of God leading them within the length and breadth that God said—go into all the world.

Okay, all the world's a big place, Lord. What part of the world do You want me to go to? What part of the world do You want me to reach? And so for me, there is that dynamic of the Spirit of God who speaks to us and leads us and guides us, which we see in the Bible and we practically experience.

Prophecy and Personal Guidance from the Holy Spirit

I remember you and I even—we've got a miracle daughter, as you know, Enya. And I remember, you know, the Lord coming prophetically and saying to us through prophecy that we would have a daughter, which medically we could not have. And the date of her announcing in the church was actually given to us in a prophetic word: “You're going to have a child, and you're going to announce it at this time.” And then I remember waking up one morning. It was the 18th of November, and I remember the day, and I was just having a time with the Lord, and the Lord spoke to me. And He didn't use the Bible because this isn't in the Bible.

And He said this to me, “You, MC, my wife is going to have a child by her own womb,” which was a medical impossibility. It's a miracle. And I said, “Lord, Lord, I believe You're speaking to me. If this is Your voice, would You let MC fall pregnant today?” And we'd been married for, at that point, 12 years. Had never needed contraception or anything like it because we could not fall pregnant. There were just so many problems that MC had physically. She fell pregnant that day, and lo and behold, exactly as the prophetic word, it was exactly 50 days later, which the word came, that we got up and announced from her conception to the church. And then we had a prophetic word that we would carry for seven months and—

Then MC's kidneys would fail. Thank God we had that, because on the first day of the seventh month, her kidneys failed, and the doctor said, “We have to take this child out now.” And the prophecy was, “There’ll be a fight for her life.” And there was a fight for her life and for MC's life. But those things strengthened us. This is the Spirit of God telling you of things yet to come. This is exactly Paul going to Jerusalem. And Paul, this is what’s going to happen to you in Jerusalem. And it gives him faith because he realizes he is serving a living Christ who said, “It’s better that I go, because if I go, I will send the Spirit, and He will be with you to the very end of the age. He’ll lead you and guide you into all truth.” He will, you know, and so all these things are given to us.

To deny this is like to deny Christ when He was walking on the earth as a human being. I think it’s a terrible thing. And so we need to come back to Bible Christianity, which speaks of these things. So we could go down the rabbit hole of prophecy, but I think we’re doing a video series on prophecy specifically. But this tells me, actually, that the vast majority of people who would call themselves cessationists would actually concede that God speaks today, but only through the Bible.

How to Test and Weigh Prophecy

Well, no. I think some would say, “Yeah, but God still speaks, but they’re uncomfortable with how prophecy is used or how it’s expressed, and people saying, ‘Thus saith the Lord,’ or saying that if I prophesy, you’ve got to believe it regardless.” But those are things that we feel. So there is false prophecy. There is mishandled prophecy. There is authority of prophecy that’s given too much authority. And again, we need to teach the churches, which is another conversation, about how to weigh prophecy. The Bible says, and the Bible tells us, that we must not despise prophecy, which is quite interesting. It tells us quite specifically that we shouldn’t despise it.

So I would argue anyone who rejects prophecy is rejecting the very Word of God. But test everything. Yeah. And hold to what is true. And so again, this is a separate conversation about how we weigh and measure prophecy. Prophecy never contradicts the Word of God. It never contradicts the Bible. But at this—and it needs to be weighed and measured. If one prophet speaks, others must test it. So all these things need to be in place for it to function in a healthy biblical way. And yes, at times the charismatic church has not practiced this. And so they have, in a sense, neglected the Scriptures and neglected what the Scripture says. So you can despise prophecy by not applying the biblical standard or by rejecting it. So both ways. And that seems to be Paul in Corinthians, in chapter 12.

Yes, he’s talking about how we need the gifts—prophecy, miracles, healing—not just to the apostles but to every part of the body. A hundred percent. Every part. So it’s not just gifts to a particular few, but these gifts are to the whole body. In Joel, and he says they must be desired, they must be used, we can increase in them. And then in 1 Corinthians 14, he’s then rebuking the wrong use of the gifts. So it’s neither charismatic excess nor cessationist denial, but there’s the biblical application.

Biblical Commands to Desire Spiritual Gifts

And I mean, the Bible is very clear. We say we’re Bible people. The Bible says this in 1 Corinthians 14:1: “Earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.” Desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially the power gifts. This has not got to do with character. Yes, the Bible talks about character, but this is desiring the gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12:31, “Eagerly desire the greater gifts.” But cessationists and militant cessationists say that we shouldn’t desire this. And I would argue that they are in rebellion against the very Bible that they’re saying they’re upholding, because they’re rejecting the very Scriptures.

In 1 Corinthians 12:7, “Each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” This is gifts. This is tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, miracles, gifts of faith. These are, you know, discerning of spirits. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:5, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but even more, I’d love you to prophesy.” These are the Scriptures. These are Holy Spirit-inscribed Scriptures.

But today, no, you know, if you speak in tongues, it’s the devil. And I think, I think you’re in danger of blaspheming the Spirit of God as you say that, and blaspheming the Word of God, because the Word of God clearly tells us that we should desire these things.

Do Not Quench the Spirit or Despise Prophecy

And so, it’s quite interesting, in 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything and hold to what is good.” But in verse 19, “Do not quench the Spirit.”

Verse 20: “Do not despise prophecies.” I can argue here that there is a link between despising and rejecting prophecy and quenching the Holy Spirit and putting out His fire. Timothy is told, “Fan into flame the gift that was given to the laying on of hands.” And so, actually, by despising prophecy, you are quenching and warring the spirit against the Spirit of God. And so we must hold to prophecy, encourage prophecy, test prophecy. This is the balancing factor. And hold to what is good.

And so here again, I would argue, if we Bible people, we understand that we can actually quench the Spirit if we despise prophecy. And so we've got to be very, very careful. And then there's the straw man argument that I absolutely detest, which is how most cessationists, militant cessationists, argue.

Prophecy Does Not Add to Scripture

“Well, if you prophesy, you're adding to Scripture.” And I'm like—and I'm like, I mean, even I heard one of the big guys—I won't mention names because we're not in the habit of doing that—say, “Well, if you're apostles, write Scripture.” And I'm like, actually, that's rubbish. Apostles didn't write Scripture. There were some apostles—some apostles did—but there were many apostles that didn't write Scripture.

And some people who wrote Scripture weren't apostles. Luke—Luke writes two whole books, and he's—we don't even know what he is. Mark is not an apostle. Admittedly, he might have written maybe Peter's writings, but Mark is—you've got all these letters where there are non-apostles writing Scripture. Jude, the brother of Jesus; James, he's not one of the Twelve. So you're going, “Ah, Hebrews—we don't even know who wrote that.”

And so you sit there going, actually, they make these big statements, and then they make charismatics look stupid because they create these strong arguments that we say that we're adding to Scripture because we believe in prophecy. I don't know one single charismatic that thinks we can add to Scripture. I don't know one. There probably are some weird, whacky ones somewhere. There are fringes. I don't know personally any. Every charismatic out there, even in groups that I think are unhealthy, don't think they can add to Scripture.

And so again, you're creating these straw man arguments that are really, really nonsense. The Bible is very—and then, I mean, we can go on about, “If you prophesy anything wrong, you're a false prophet.” And I'm like, hang on there. The Bible says, “Don't despise prophecy. Test everything. Hold to what is good.” 1 Corinthians 14:29: “When someone prophesies, let the others weigh and test.” You don't write prophecy.

New Testament Prophecy Must Be Tested

Prophecy is very different in the New Testament to the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, they had no Bible. And so the prophets were the authority. They had some Scripture, but the Holy Spirit was only poured out on select few—100%. And so, who were the guys who were going to test the prophets? And even then, there was a very progressive—they were still getting Scripture. And so there was a sense that if someone prophesied in the Old Testament wrongly, you killed them.

Who's going to test them? Yeah. No. So, in the New Testament, your sons and daughters are going to prophesy. And so in that, if your sons and daughters are going to be prophesying, is prophecy going to be perfect all the time? Definitely not. And that's why it says, “Test everything and hold.” And again, we value prophecy. So if somebody does get it wrong, we'll say, “100%,” which we've done. And some churches have failed in that, perhaps. And again, what we come down to is a lot of the arguments against the gifts are actually the same arguments we would make against the abuse or the wrong use of the gifts.

100%. We would definitely say—and again, we have corrected prophecy. We have rejected prophecy. We've said, “This is not the Lord.” We've weighed prophecy on Scripture and found at times it's wanting. We've had people repent and said, “I said something.” And right—exactly. Exactly.

We Follow the Lord, Not Prophecy

And so again, when things are properly weighed and measured according to the Scriptures and even the spirits of the other prophets, which is what the Bible says should happen, and then actually prophecy is a lot safer. And ultimately, at the end of the day anyway, I think I've always said this: We don't follow prophecy; we follow the Lord. I mean, even when Paul is told by Agabus, who is a prophet, that he's going to go

to Jerusalem, Agabus does get that prophecy a bit wrong because he says that the Jews will bind you. And it's not the Jews that bind him. It's the Romans. It's the Gentiles that bind him. He says, "The Jews will bind you and hand you to the Gentiles." Actually, the Gentiles do bind him. The Romans save him because the Jews want to kill him. And the Romans bind him. And so, there's a couple of things wrong in that prophecy, but he gets the gist of it right. And then you're going to be persecuted in Jerusalem, which he gets right. And the Bible says they all begged Paul, "Don't go to Jerusalem." And so Paul says, "No, I'm compelled by the Spirit. I'm going." And so for me, you know, because a prophet's begging you

not to go because he's seen something bad, you as individuals, we need to teach believers that you've got to work this out with your own faith and fear and trembling. No person outside of the Holy Spirit should be telling you what to do. Nobody can lord it over your faith. Exactly. Not an elder, not an apostle, not a prophet. Exactly. And so at the end of the day, the responsibility is on the individual to steward what God is saying to them and to weigh, "Is this the Lord?" If you throw your brain away because somebody, we don't follow prophecy. Prophecy encourages it. It confirms it. Sometimes, sometimes I've heard prophecy and I've gone, "Oh my goodness, I think God's in this. I believe this is the Lord." But

Church History and the Continuation of Spiritual Gifts

we've got to test it. And so again, if it's tested properly, it's actually super healthy. You know, something else I wanted to talk about is church history because I think it was Wesley that said, "If it's true, it's not new. And if it's new, it's not true." And I did a little deep dive into church history. And church history is filled, post the end of the first century, post the book of Revelation, with prophets and prophecy. So you've got guys like Justin Martyr who writes in his Dialogue with Trypho, "For the prophetical gifts remain with us even to the present time." And this is probably written around 150, 160, which is, like, you know, a—after death. And so Polycarp was a disciple of John. So

this guy was discipled by John the apostle, and he actually has a vision, according to the Martyrdom of Polycarp, of how he's going to die and tells the Christians how he's going to be martyred, and it's exactly right. He's martyred that way. His disciple is Irenaeus, and Irenaeus writes in—somewhere between 130 and 202. He's probably writing this in about, you know, 160, 170. And he's against heresies, and listen, I love this. This is the early practice of the Christians post the end of the first century, post John's final letter. In Against Heresies 5:6, verse 1, we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages and bring to light for the

general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God. He goes on in verse 2:32, "For others still heal the sick by the laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yes, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up." So you've got these early guys and others. They talk about the ongoing gifts, and even some of your Calvinists, your big—you know, you've got John Piper, you've got Wayne Grudem, you've got—I think even one of the great ones was, what was his name now? I think Martyn Lloyd-Jones even spoke about the ongoing need for prophecy and the gifts. And so, yeah, history is on our side. You go through the Anabaptists and all of them, history is filled with

people hearing God prophetically. And so actually, those that are saying prophecy is not for today are actually fighting not only against the Word of God but against the history of the church. Yeah, even as late as Augustine as well. Augustine wrote, in essence, that there's not as many miracles as there used to be, but there still—and there was a diminishing. But that was as the church drifted, in many ways, from truth.

Truth. And can I say, can I say, I think that there are seasons of power and seasons of less power depending on the state of the church and what God is wanting to do. And so it's not like we're always going to walk in the fullness of what we see. At the start of the book of Acts, you see handkerchiefs healing people. At the end of the book of Acts, you see healings, but a lot of people are being left sick. And it's not always the same.

There are seasons where the Lord does things, but the Lord does things. That's the point. And so, you know, we can't re-ignore what the Bible clearly teaches, because there are seasons where the Spirit of God might wane, or there might be less power. There is power today. I can tell you right now, in certain parts of the world, you will see today blind people, you'll see powerful miracles, and that's come and gone through the ages.

The History of Cessationism and the Reformation

So, and this might be contentious to some, but I've done my research on this: cessationism as a systematic approach only came in with the Reformation, 100%. Actually, not even the full Reformation, because Luther was part—Luther and Calvin didn't agree. Calvin was anti them. Calvin was Bible only. And he was probably one of the few that were that strong. And unfortunately, modern Calvinism has picked up that bad, because the Catholic Church, even to today, is not cessationist.

I know. Nor is it. It might be strange. They might have as much superstition as they have faith and wrong doctrines. They still believe in apostles. The pope is an apostle. They have saints who—you attain sainthood if you've two verified miracles. Now, I'm not saying that's correct. Might be correct, but this carried through. Yeah. And with the Reformation came a reaction to that superstition, but also with something that was the brand-new freedom from that. There were fringe groups that were into prophecy that wasn't tested. And there was actually a response of, "We've got to control."

Yeah. We—and unfortunately or fortunately, in God's economy, He's less concerned about control and His own reputation than we are. And if we put boundaries in place to protect God's name, I think we're touching things that we shouldn't touch. The Pharisees did that. They were so careful to never go back into captivity, to teach Israel to be obedient to God, that they put traditions. And in Matthew 15:6, Jesus clearly says, "By your traditions, you're nullifying the very word of God."

You're nullifying the presence in the life of Jesus, which they did. They crucified Him. And I would argue that modern militant cessationists are doing exactly the same thing. And they're warring against the Spirit of God, just like the Jews war against Jesus. And it may be pure motivation. Yeah. They want to protect the church, but that's exactly what the Pharisees wanted to do, and they warred against the head of the church because their traditions—they were parabiblical traditions. And likewise, your modern cessationists are using parabiblical traditions, not biblical. There's no biblical foundation, and maybe we can jump into—that's what I want—there's no biblical foundation that the gifts cease. It just—and we can look at some of the Scriptures together, because the Bible says, well, You know, He'll be with us in the end times to the very end of the age. You know, the instructions on prophecy needed in the church so that the unbelievers are cut to the heart. In, you know, seek prophecy, seek the gifts, seek the greater gifts. This is the command of the New Testament, and this continues. And so again, I mean, I'm sure we can look at—maybe dive into how the gifts must continue. Let's look at this.

So, so I think overall, let's look at those Scriptures. But I think any approach that says the power of God will diminish over time seems to be contrary to a consistent theme of Scripture. Ezekiel 37, the river gets deeper. The glory of the latter will be greater than the glory of the former. This seems to be an advancement. It would seem strange to me that the nature of the kingdom would diminish in power over time. But let's have a look at some Scriptures, because cessationists would say that they're arguing from—

Does 1 Corinthians 13 Teach That the Gifts Will Cease?

So we referenced earlier Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 talks about gifts, and in 1 Corinthians 14, the corrective use of the gift. But in 1 Corinthians 13—and this is a big, big one that guys use—and I'll read it. Paul is talking about love. And then He says, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child. I thought like a child. I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known."

And the argument is that He's saying, "When the perfect comes, prophecy will cease." And now that we have the fullness of the canon of Scripture, the perfect has come.

Love, Order, and the Proper Use of Spiritual Gifts

You know, I—I think, firstly, they're missing—the guys are missing what he's trying to do. Right. Right. The Corinthians think they're being very spiritual because they are exercising the gifts, and they—they—they think this is spirituality. Speaking in tongues to the whole meeting, it's chaos. You know, it's just—it's chaos. And so, what Paul's trying to do is to argue with them that they're not actually considering others. They're not actually being loved.

Even the way they brought bread together, there was not a consideration. So, he's hitting a deeper thing. And what he's trying to do is to try and show order of importance. And so he's—he's already told us that the gifts are important in Corinthians. I want you to desire the gifts. He's not diminishing them. But what He is saying is love is the most important thing and considering of others. And so this is all that he's doing. But in the middle of that conversation, he is still emphasizing the need for the gifts. I want you all to speak in tongues. I want you all to prophesy. But keep the main thing the main thing and—and—and—and get some also for me.

I look at a plain reading of this. He says, "When the perfect comes, they will cease." Now, if he's meaning when we've got the fullness of the canon of Scripture, that's a really weird way of saying when—when—when Scripture is complete. But he also then goes on to say, "For then we shall know fully." Now, does it mean now that we've got all of Scripture, we know fully? I mean, what verse are you in there?

That's 1 Corinthians 13:9-12.

Well, before this, love in verse 8: "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away." Oh, okay. So, is Paul telling us here they're probably going to pass away? "As for tongues, they will cease." Oh, yeah.

"As for knowledge, it will pass away." So, he's giving us the context here of what he's saying. And he's saying that knowledge is going to pass away at some point. Tongues will pass away. Prophecy is going to pass. But he starts us with love continues. And again, my point being, he's trying to show that love is the most important thing.

And then he says, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away." And so again, this—it's the same narrative. He's—he's—so what does he mean when he says the perfect, when the perfect comes? And that—that is the point. And so cessationists argue that, well, the perfect is now we've got the Bible. But that's a massacring of the text because the Bible doesn't—it—it—no, is the Bible spoken of now that the perfect has come? And in fact, again, the context is passing away happens. Prophecy does pass away at some point. Tongues do pass away at some point. So does knowledge.

When Will Prophecy, Tongues, and Knowledge Cease?

Now, what's interesting is—and—and they altogether, they grouped. Now, knowledge according to Scripture is a good thing. In fact, we would argue 2 Peter 1:2, "May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord." 1 Timothy 2:4, "who God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." So knowledge scripturally is spoken of about our understanding mentally, our understanding theologically of God. And so what he's telling us is our theology is going to fall away.

And so actually, why is the theology going to fall away? Because now we see in part. Now we're separated from God. Now He's in heaven. But then when the perfect comes, when Christ returns, we will no longer need prophecy because we will know everything, even as we've fully known. We'll no longer need tongues because we will understand everything when—when we see Him face to face. Face to face.

We're no longer seeing in a mirror dimly. And that's the point. You're seeing Him face to face. I—I am not seeing Jesus face to face. I—I am seeing Him still dimly through a letter. But then He says it'll be face to face. I'll be in the presence of God, finally free from sin. Finally, I will be as He is, being fully known. And the Bible says knowing fully, which basically tells me no person would say they fully know everything. We know in part now and we prophesy in part, but then we'll know everything.

You know, we—we argue about the mystery of how God sovereignly chooses people, and we debate about how that works. We kind of think it's like this mystery. There's mysteries of how—does it work and how.

Does God, in His providence, choose, but how do we choose? How do these mysteries all work? Now, we know in part, but then we'll know fully. And so, clearly, the Bible is saying to us that only when Christ returns will we not need prophecy in tongues. But here's the thing: as He tells us, love is going to continue, all because love is now fully realized in the presence of God. And so again, Paul's arguing, really, at the end of the day, not that prophecies and tongues are going to cease. He's arguing that they need to be right.

Spiritual Gifts Continue Until Christ Returns

I mean, that is a classic case of Jesus. I—I need a verse that shows Scripture, and oh, it will cease. And—and you know what? But a plain reading—exactly, a plain reading—can't—I know it, it—it's—the arrogance of cessationists, to me, where they tell us that we're reading into the text, and I'm like, dude, read the text. I mean, I—I found another Scripture as I was just looking at this. I mean, Paul actually connects us waiting for the return of Christ, that we need the spiritual gifts, and he says this in 1 Corinthians 1:7: that we should not lack in any gift. And these are the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

As you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, He's clearly talking here about the revelation of Jesus coming in the sky, the—the second coming. And we must not lack in any gift until that day. And so there is no Scripture that the Scriptures lean and point. So if this—if 1 Corinthians 13 is Paul saying once Scripture is filled, these things will pass away, you would expect then, in his instructions, which he knows are written 100% for all men everywhere, he would have an until somewhere.

Exactly. Exactly. And there's never an until.

The Early Church and the History of Cessationism

No, there's not. And—and the early Christians didn't believe that there was an until because they carried on. Polycarp and Ignatius, those who were discipled by John, were carrying on in the gifts. So you have to go—you know, this is a—this is a very late Calvinian—I mean, we're talking now the last few hundred years in church history. That's—and it's a small segment of Protestant Christianity that's taken this line. They've taken now the moral high ground and become a loud voice. But it's a small segment which I think have, firstly, are massacring the text and doing more eisegesis than anyone else I know in the text. They're just ignoring the Bible says, “Do not despise prophecy.”

The Bible says, “Eagerly desire prophecy.” They are telling us to do the very opposite of what the Bible says. I want to argue that these people are enemies of the Word of God. I—I mean, I am strong on this, and I know you might not land here, but I think these are enemies of the very Word, and they're twisting the Scriptures to say what clearly the Scripture is not saying, and warring against the Spirit of God and blaspheming the Holy Spirit and doing damage to the body of Christ—the very One that Jesus said He would leave in the church until the end, you know, till the last days, till the very end of the age. They—they squeeze and they quench and they put out His fire, and they're leading young people and young women away to believe that they must have a form of religion with a denying of the power of everything the Bible warns against.

I believe—I certainly agree with you that there are—there are people who want to see charismatic expression of Christianity destroyed and—and—and think they're doing God a favor, which again is—which is exactly what the Pharisees did. They were doing God a favor. That was Paul's zeal. In his zeal, he persecuted the followers of the Way because this was the rejection of Christ. And I think we likewise have people persecuting the very people of God. And this is exactly what happened.

Rejecting the Holy Spirit and the Church

It's interesting, Stephen. I love his speech in Acts 7 when he's—he's—he's arguing with those that are going to ultimately kill him. And he speaks right through the Bible, and he speaks how you've rejected the Father, how you've also rejected the Son, and then he speaks about how now you're rejecting the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. And I think it's part of an end-times falling away. Actually, I think it's part of a great apostasy of the church, warring against the church, brother betraying brother, believing like Paul did in his zeal. And I know people are doing with sincere zeal, believing they're trying to protect the integrity of God and the integrity of the Word of God, but they're blinded just as the Pharisees were blinded. And they're warring against God's—and—and—and.

And Stephen says this: “You—you—you’re warring against the prophets. You’re warring against those who are actually carrying the right message.” And that’s what Paul did. And thank God he came to his senses. And I think my hope is that some who are taken captive by this deceptive philosophy—and it is a philosophy. It’s not theology—would come to their senses and repent and realize that the Holy Spirit is here, as the prophet Joel prophesied in the last days; that we need to seek the gifts, that we need the power of the Spirit, that we need to see the body of Christ with each part functioning as Christ functioned when He—that we need to be led by the Spirit; that we never contradict the Word, but that the Spirit

The Spirit Remains With the Church Until Christ Returns

is alive and He’s with the church until the return of Christ. And when He returns, we will be like Him. We won’t need the gifts anymore because we will be fully like Him, and assume full—there’ll be no sickness to be healed. There’ll be exactly—we don’t need any of the gifts because there’s no longer—for now, for now, at that point, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our God. And so we no longer need the gifts because now they’ve fallen away because the shadow has now been replaced with the real. And so again, my—I think my encouragement for believers is: don’t be swayed. We’re warned about these things in the Bible.

We’re commanded in the Bible to desire these things. I always say to people, if they say, “Must I do—I have to experience these things to be a believer?” I say it’s the wrong question. The right question is, “If God has these things for me, why would I not want them?” I want the fullness of what God has for me. Following Jesus is hard enough. And I would encourage every single person who’s listening to this, again, check this for yourself and come before the Lord and say, “Lord, the fullness of what You want for me, that’s what I want.”

It’s good.