How to Leave Church Well

The most powerful thing we can do sometimes is to live in the freedom that we have in Christ and to walk away. Just go, "I'm walking away. I can't—I can’t—my conscience, I can't walk with you." And then when I leave people, like, "Why did you leave?" I just felt I saw things differently and I felt God's led me out.

Yeah, again it's—it's painful on all sides. And even though the leaders may be right, it's still painful. Or even though the saints may be right, it's painful. And so for the leaders, we need to do things the way of Jesus.

And for saints, we need to do things the way of Jesus. It's only going to be perfect in heaven. So, there's a lot of grace that's—yeah—that—that's going to be needed to be extended.

Approaching the Subject of Leaving a Church Biblically

Hey, welcome to another one of our kind of programs and we're looking at the subject of, um, people leaving churches. You know, we teach a lot about how to join a church, but the question is also then, um, how do you leave in a—in a good biblical way? And we'll get to that just now. And with me is Jonathan Stanfield from the Isle of Man, part of our apostolic team working with us into the nations. And, uh, a veteran in the faith. It's good to have you with us, Jonathan.

Characteristics of a Healthy New Testament Church

And so, we were just chatting before this and kind of spoke about, um, you know, at the end of the day the church is the vehicle that God's chosen to reveal His glory. But people and churches are very similar. People are in different degrees of health. Some are really healthy and some are really unhealthy. Um, and likewise churches. You—you look at the Paul's letters to, uh, the various churches and, uh, the Philippians are a healthy church. Um, the—the Corinthians are not. The Colossians he says have even possibly lost connection with the Head and so it's really a dead church. And so churches are in different degrees of health. So, the question then comes down to, before we maybe look at leaving churches, what does a healthy church look like? And maybe I'll—I'll throw that out to you at first, John. Like, what does a healthy church look like? What would be some things that, you know, people should look for when they are trying to find a healthy expression of Jesus in the church?

It's like a healthy family. You know, I think a key word for me when I think about a healthy church is devotion. You know, it says in Acts 2, "They devoted themselves." And you'll see a healthy church and it isn't leaders saying, "You must. You have to." But from within—and from within the people—there's this devotion to the ways of Jesus. So, rather than, you know, Christianity light—there's Ten Commandments, you know, pick any seven you'd like, you know—etc. But actually know that these people—if you're going to join a church, you actually—that's why we joined, I think, 4:12, partnering with 4:12 because I think up to 70 Jenners came to the Isle of Man 2012 and—and within a weekend almost, suddenly our church changed because our people went, "I want to belong to a church like that." And there was the—a devotion, people paid their own flights, um, were prepared to live in homes. I want a marriage like that. I want—I want kids, uh, like that. So, that's where I would kick off that if you're looking at joining a church, that are—are they just ticking the box of Sunday mornings, Wednesday nights, you know, or are they a devoted people?

Yeah, totally. 100%. And then I mean, you—you—we think of things like, um, I always think even the fivefold gifts. Uh, you know, a church that's in partnership with fivefold gifts—it, Christ ascended, He gives these gifts to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And so again, for me, I would be looking for a church also that would have, um, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers that would be ministering into her from the outside that would really be helping her equip individual saints for to serve Jesus. Bible would be one as well, hey? I mean, a sense of a church that's holding true to the scriptures as the highest authority. And then the Holy Spirit. You know, so we are—we are people who are led by the Spirit. No, we'll never go beyond what the scripture says. But we actually are not led by the scriptures. We're led by the Spirit of God. So, the dependence upon the leading of the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit, that's so important as well.

Good. Yeah, otherwise we just end up in Programs and systems that are man-made versus Spirit-led and Spirit-built. And I think that's such a key thing. Definitely that need of the presence and the life of the Holy Spirit. And especially even in leadership, that the leadership aren't just strategically planning and strategizing, but that they're actually in times in prayer and finding God's face, listening to the voice, because the Spirit is here on the earth to ultimately build the church that the gates of hell can't prevail against.

The Importance of Biblical Leadership and Community

Even church discipline, you know? You think of something around—every church says it's Bible-based, but I don't even know if you're really Bible—if you're really a Bible church, you'll do what the Bible says. And so, for me, you know, are they expressing what the Bible says when it comes to leadership? You know, elders plurality versus senior pastor—all these things are important. Are they adding extra things to their church or are they building just the Bible way?

Following the blueprint of the New Testament?

Yes. So, what we've always said is that we don't want churches to become like Living Hope. Totally. We don't actually want churches to even become like Josh Gen. 100%. We want churches to look like the New Testament. Would Jesus recognize this church? Does it look like a New Testament church? And I think a key thing that you would see is community. Totally. That that would be a healthy church, that these people aren't just sharing, as I say, Sunday morning, Wednesday night. They're sharing life together. They're not just meeting in the temple courts, but they're meeting in their homes as well. That's going to be a healthy dynamic.

Addressing Doctrinal Drift and Sin in the Church

Very good. So these are all things—there's obviously others—but these would be dynamics that we should look for in a church. Then you've got the challenge of what happens if you're in a church that is not holding those things, and it or is not—has a different belief system to what you believe is what the Bible clearly says. And I mean, I was just even thinking, for me, there's no perfect church. We all—like there's no perfectly healthy human being. There's some that are healthy and there's some that are unhealthy, but there's no perfectly healthy. But trajectory is everything, you know, for me. And I always think I want to find a church that's moving in the right direction. If they're moving in the wrong direction, I'm going to be nervous, you know. They're moving away.

You look at some of the drifts that are happening in Christianity in our generation from doctrines that have been held for 2,000 years, and suddenly there's new moves and new shifts. And I'm like, that concept I would struggle to stand. You would also struggle with that. So as we said, we're Spirit-led people, but the rule of faith is scriptures. Yes. So you see the issues like identity, sexual identity, marriage. You know, when a church drifts from that and actually in 1 Corinthians Paul says people that are living those sorts of ways aren't going to inherit the kingdom of God, then that is trouble.

Yes, that's trouble. Totally. Totally. And so you've got these obvious moments where clear sin—where the sin is clearly contravening the word of God. The church is clearly contravening the word of God. Where, you know, there's just a disregard for the truth of the scriptures. And obviously these would be a good reason. If you know, speak up, try and see if you can help, but if your leaders are not going to listen.

How to Raise Concerns with Church Leaders

And how do you speak up? Like Aquila and Priscilla, I mean, Apollos didn't know everything. There were gaps. So, I mean, we all have blind spots. And so, but it says in the first instance that they took him aside privately to explain the ways more clearly. So, I would always start there if somebody in my congregation, or in the field of churches, is thinking, "Uh, we're missing something from the Bible. We're missing something from what the Bible says is a New Testament church," or adding things that wouldn't clearly be in a healthy church, then I would always encourage people—we have an open door policy.

I would always say to people that like if you're going to address something sensitive, I prefer it isn't in an email or a WhatsApp. If you really love me, like if I really love you, I'm not just going to dump it on you, Andrew. I'm going to say, "Can we meet up for a coffee? A chat." So, I would say the starting point, where if it looks like the trajectory of your church isn't going towards the blueprint of the New Testament, is to try to have that one-on-one in a humble way and a non-embarrassing way for people as well. And you never know what can happen. One of our churches in Europe, that's how it started. A saint from another—

Church started speaking to the pastors saying, "Um, do you—what about the gifts of the Spirit, you know? What about—I've read the book of Acts, you know?"

"Yeah. Um, do you believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, you know?" I think it was Wimber, that's what his line was after being in a particularly strong Bible-based church. And then he said, "When do we get to do the stuff?" But I'm sure he didn't say that on Sunday morning over the microphone.

You know, so taking people aside, it's like the Matthew 18 principle. If you have any concerns, and if you're a wise leader, you're going to, "Hey, please come and visit me in my home. I can always grow. I can always learn." Um yeah, "My door is always open." You're going to be open to perspective. Very good. And even like then Matthew 18, you might need a chat again. You know, it's not then you send the poison pen letter. Can we talk a bit further on this?

Yes. you know. Then you know, those are ways forward if the trajectory isn't right or the practices aren't right.

Handling Conflict Without Being Divisive

Yeah. Yeah, and it's so important that we do, you know, process these things because blind spots are blind spots, you know? And if you see that the church you're in is going down the wrong road, it's good to speak up the right way. And don't go drop it in a home group because you actually then become a faction. You become divisive. You need to work it through with the leaders, much like in a family. And a family is such a great picture of a church. You know, if one of the children thinks that the parents aren't doing it right, it's not that he gangs up with all the other kids, and they gang up and go, "We the children." Because you've got to appeal.

And the Bible speaks about even appealing to an older man. Go to him and try and work it through with him, you know? And maybe also realize that when you go like that, you might not have your facts right. There might be things behind the scenes that you're not aware of, or even a misunderstanding or misconception around what's being said or what's being processed.

But then again, Matthew 18, if you don't feel that you're being heard, then you know—and I would always suggest if it's to a leader that you're going, because it's a leadership issue here that we're dealing with, not just a brother against brother, I would suggest you go to another elder and say, "I'm struggling, you know?" And try and get that elder to hear you out, and then to work through with that other elder to try and process what needs to be processed. That said, you might find the elders together agree, and now you find yourself in a situation where the elders are joined together and you're still feeling like, "Whoa."

Seeking External Help Through Apostolic Partnership

I know. And that gets complicated, doesn't it? So now, what do you do? And I still think we have a way biblically of processing this. And again, that's why I said earlier, a healthy church is in a partnership in Ephesians 4, you know, top partnership with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, because there is an appeal outside of that local church.

Because, let's be honest, in the New Testament, Paul's writing letters to churches where they are with elders and they are getting a lot wrong. And these are elderships governed churches. So even a plurality of eldership can get this very, very wrong. And that's the point of Paul's letters. And even John in Revelation writes to the seven churches. These are—all the letters are out there already, and yet still they're wrong. So then there's the point of you can appeal to the apostolic, which you see in Corinth. Paul says to the Corinthians, "Certain people from Chloe's household have informed me." And He begins to address the issues that are in those local churches. And so the need to be able to then go beyond the local to the apostolic.

Yes. Yeah, and a great lesson in that as well is again, a healthy church that saints and elders and even apostolic team and Ephesians 4:11 gifts, etc., that the saints have access. You know, it isn't a green room or anything like that, that we all know one another. And if there's any concerns, that people can speak up. But sometimes you do speak up and the "no" comes. You know, I think that's the challenge. "Yes, we have heard what you said. Um, but actually, we disagree with you." That's a hard thing. You know,

I always remember the story, I think Chuck Swindoll tells it of Thomas Jefferson, and he was with his man traveling cross country, heavy rainfall, the bridge is out. He's crossing the river on horseback, and there are people trying to get across the river, but they couldn't get across, and they're looking for assistance, and this one person says to Jefferson, "Can I get in the back of your horse?" And he gets in the back of Jefferson's horse and goes across the river, and when he dismounts on the far side, Jefferson says to the person, "How did you know I was the president?" And the guy says, "Oh, I didn't know you were the president. I just knew that you had a face that said, 'Yes.'" And they had a face that said, "No."

Developing a Leader's Heart of Openness

Now, in ministry, I always—I want to have a face that says, "Yes." When people come to me with ideas and things like that, I can't think up every great—I'm not Jesus, you understand? And I will always want to have the face that says, "Yes." You know, if anybody approaches me, I want to have that default. I can learn more. That's my starting point. I would like their starting point maybe to be maybe the elders are right, but my starting point is, well, maybe I can learn. Yes.

And then I want to have a face that says, "Yes." I think hopefully most people that know me would say, "Jordan has a face that says, 'Yes.'" But there comes occasionally times like in maybe in Acts 15, when you have these Judaizers that are saying that, you know, you need—man need to get circumcised, you need to go through a ceremonial law and trust Jesus to be really saved, right? And so, they are bringing it. They start off possibly maybe the right way, maybe maybe not, maybe it's a bit of leaking, and they share with the elders and—so, the elders all meet, and they meet with the apostolic team, and then, "Okay, I've heard everything." And then James says—the leader of the team says to the Judaizers, "No. No, that isn't the way of Jesus. That isn't God's way." And actually, I want to—I'm going to put this in writing.

The Challenge of Accepting Authority and Discipline

You know, the reality is those men, and probably women, find "no" a very difficult word. And actually, today, you know, you see it in parenting. Many parents are afraid to tell their kids no. They won't. And humbly and with the greatest respect, there are a lot of church members that in other contexts have never really had "no."

I have four daughters. Two are still living under my roof, and you know, we have a lot of strangers that come through the house and that. But if you're to live under my roof, these are the values of living under. And what you're saying, I hear society's changed, or I hear maybe the other house down the road—other houses do it this way, but if you're going to be under our roof, as, you know, living under our roof, you can maybe come in—then, no.

You know, I think actually, that's what some people will hear for the wrong reason. Maybe a church has gone very liberal, and they'll say, you know, they want the church to stay true to the scriptures. And a liberal church has said, "No, we're going to do different types of marriages, etc." And you have that. I mean, and what you do when that happens, you're in a very—the trajectory at your church, and they're saying, "No." And they are the spiritual authority, even if they're in the wrong, but they are the moms and dads of that church.

Standing Firm on Church Doctrine and Values

Or if you're in a partnering church with us, and you hear, "I have—we have listened to you. I've listened. I hear you. But actually, no, we do believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today. No, we do believe that there are apostles today, not like Paul. Apostles with a small 'a.' Like Timothy. No, we do believe in generosity. We do teach the tithe. We're not going to put it on you, but we do teach those things. We do teach, you know, that Jesus is coming back for His church. We do believe in an eternal conscious torment. We do believe that there's a heaven and there's a hell," and we will always try to...

Speak well, you know, to the whole church and give the nuances, but no, that's I think that's as I've been reflecting, you know, because I've said in an interview that we are living at a time globally when people are jumping from one aquarium to another aquarium. Oh, the people are leaving and probably leaving in ways that you would never have imagined in a previous generation. And so, how do we how do we navigate whether it's a—you hear that word? It's not shouted or anything. No,

we've taken everything into consideration as much as we can and we're not—I know we're not perfect and we've listened to others, but no, this is this is what we believe we should be doing.

Yes. You know, and then there's you know, what does the saint do in that situation?

The Danger of Offense and Bitter Roots

So good. So good. And I mean again, a beautiful picture you mentioned that, you know, the church in Jerusalem, the group heard "no" even after the Acts Council. Now you got apostles, you got elders, and the decision is no. You don't need to do this. But that group is offended and they become—what Paul actually calls them—wolves. They they they literally hound him for the rest of his life and hound the early Christians and call them heretics, they call them all sorts of things and and ultimately even involved in in some ways in the ultimate, you know, persecution of the church and even of of Paul. The you know, and and it's quite radical that the no for them was—they were wrong. But they thought they were right.

Yes. And then the other side is interesting when you hear no is the Bible speaks about an offended brother is as a fortified city. So it's normal for us to find people who will agree with us. And then you know, and and I probably one of the most dangerous things in this modern time is we've seen the narrative shift. I grew up in a culture that was "don't touch God's anointed" and I remember being one of the rebels initially that spoke against that and was like, well, you're well anointed, you know, because I just felt like it was unbalanced. But I think it's swung too far the other way now where where I think you know, cultural Marxism which is really the belief that the powerful are wrong and the weak or the vulnerable are right. And so the narrative is created that whenever the the weak or the vulnerable or those that feel hurt or feel hurt, wherever there's hurt, the person that hurt you is wrong. This is your truth, this is your reality.

That narrative, which is a worldly narrative, has now come into the church. And so it's framed itself like the prince of darkness masquerades as an angel of light. It's masqueraded in the sense of mercy and justice speaking up for the for those who cannot speak for themselves. God hates, you know, leaders who are abusive, but that's become now the narrative by which the church measures and weighs things and that's not a good narrative. It's an unbalanced narrative. As much as I was against the "don't touch God's anointed" when leaders were really doing things wrong and not getting addressed, it's now equally the other way wrong and so with this has come a justice to speak up and everyone's got a platform now. Everyone's got a pulpit and it's Facebook or it's Instagram or it's, yeah. And so, now people are are are are are screaming and shouting about how they were wronged, how this leadership is—no one can speak to—and and it becomes very divisive.

Understanding Delegated Authority in the Church

And I think this is what makes leaving so difficult because people don't leave well. Yes. And I think there's a misunderstanding—and I'm keen to hear what you think of this—I think there's a misunderstanding around an understanding of delegated authority. That Christ—this is the—the Bible tells us there is no authority except that which God has put in place.

Yeah. And and then the mind-blowing thing about that is that that scripture is written into the context of honor to Rome and to Caesar who's persecuting unjustly the early Christians in an unjust way, calling them to deny Christ or be persecuted. And the scripture says there is no authority.

Yes. And and it must be so hard for the early Christians, you know, how—what do you mean God put Caesar over us? What do you mean? And I think sometimes while we want to—we want to always within a—as a Four12 partnership—churches deal with erring leaders stricter than we would deal with anyone else because I think there's a higher standard.

Deciding When to Yield and When to Leave

At the same time, sometimes the saint feels "I'm— unjustly treated here, you know, this is not a good leadership. And they go through the processes, flag it up the food chain as it were, bring it to the apostles. But if everyone's united you have to at some point go, "There is delegated authority here. I am not an authority here, but I do have authority over something and it's my own life and it's my own family." And so, for me, I think there needs to be a freedom there if you're feeling that is the case that you leave, that you walk away, that you find a church which is reflecting what you believe because at the end of the day if we don't um—two can't walk together unless they're in agreement.

And so, either you when that moment comes you posture yourself to go, "Maybe I've got a blind spot. If everyone's in agreement here..." And I would probably posture myself personally. Paul the apostle who saw Jesus, if—if anyone, you know, could say, "Well, I know what the truth is," it was Him. Yet, He submitted Himself to those who are in leadership in fear that He was running His race in vain. So, I know you and I would—I know you well enough to know you would do this, too. We would at that point fold. We would say, "Okay, I think I'm wrong. Help me." Because if everyone's in agreement, and I know you all, and I know you love Jesus, and I know you love the Bible like I do, uh then I—I need to yield.

If that leadership, however, doesn't love the Bible like I do, or—or—or I—then obviously it's a different story. And or if that leadership is—is in my mind clearly very cracked and very broken, I might then struggle to do that. And so, then I would walk away. And I—and I would encourage anyone at that point, you need to walk away. Would you agree with me on that? I mean, would you—

Yes, yeah. And even just to go back to what happens if you're in just very liberal church, and suddenly equally, it's suddenly you've—you've seen the light. Suddenly, the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, dividing the soul to joint and marrow, yeah. Uh but even in that context, I would be urging anyone, "Okay, I think it's right for you to leave because of doctrinal error, and I agree with you on doctrinal error. But actually, how you leave is just as important as you seeing the light on the scriptures regarding a fundamental theological issues."

Leaving with Honor and Avoiding Bitterness

So, they may not even be like Caesar, but you may think they're the most woolly liberal, whatever. So, I know—but actually they still have a place of authority there that I don't have and you don't have. And so I would even just be starting—is maybe a little bit curveball for some people—but I would even just start there by saying that all authority—we need to be very careful, you know, in honor. I mean I think honor is one of the currencies of heaven. Love is a currency of—of heaven and no authority, you know, no authority, as you say.

So whether it's your president or your prime minister or chief minister, whatever it is, or that this church, that church, we have a responsibility—even for us, we have a responsibility for our—the Bible calls it a sphere of influence, metron kanonos, a sphere. We have responsibility in there, but then there are other spheres of influences that we to a greater or lesser extent may agree with, but still we're going to be very careful how we speak about anybody in—in authority.

So you have that where I'm—say I may agree with you the church down the road, now it's the unicorns and everything, all that type of thing on a Sunday and you know, it's clearly moved away from historical biblical faith, but I would be counseling anybody leave well. Leave well even though I'm agreeing with you that you know, that they've departed from the faith. Leave well, leave honoring, and keep your focus on where you're going rather than having within you, "Here's 20 things which—which is wrong with my last church."

I know I'm getting in the trouble about this, but somebody once said—people come—yes. So if you come speaking well of your last church, you know they're not carrying a bitter root, 'cause you can carry a bitter root about the wrong things.

Totally.

You know, right and right things. So, yeah, they—they move from this, they move from that. For generations my parents were in that church. But then, how you respond to that is so important.

Totally. Totally. Yeah, it is. And—and you know, people

I remember when as a young pastor, people come to me with—we planted a church and they would, you know, come and they would tell me how amazing our church was and how horrible their last leader was and how horrible their last church was and they're so glad that God joined them to us. And I remember, you know, young leader or ego getting stroked and yes, we are amazing and Jesus thing. And then, after a few years, sometimes those people would suddenly—the things that they left that last church would suddenly surface here and then they would leave the same way. And I was—we were the horrible church and I was the horrible leader now. And I remember just getting so—and then realizing it's—I think people are set in cycles and unfortunately you're the next cycle, you know, and and if they don't break out of their cycle, that cycle follows them for the rest of their lives. And they—they just become those that actually hurt the churches, you know, so it's wild. So, how does somebody leave well? I think we've already spoken about—I think the last thing you want to do is leave.

Recognizing When Conscience Requires You to Leave

Mhm. Yeah. Fight—fight to stay if you can. Fight to stay, one to one, two to one, external, everything you can. But if it's sin—and if anything's not done in faith, it's sin. You know, I was an assistant pastor in a church when I graduated after studying theology and I had to leave after 3 years because I had a gagging order on certain theological things, you know, so for a few years, okay, to the lead elder, I'm going to honor you. Yeah. I disagree on those things, not necessarily fundamental, but actually my conscience. Yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't, you know. And that's sacred. If—if you cannot go and stay where your conscience is being—and you need to there honestly, you have to—you have to leave. You can't stay. But in how you move on is just so—I may be so right, but how I move on, Do wrong. I can do—I can do wrong.

The Danger of Tearing Down the Church on Your Way Out

You can do the right thing the wrong way. And I think the right thing to do is to leave. I—I I do think that. And—and in some ways voting with your feet even if you don't say anything, you leaving is—it is a statement. I mean, don't do it to make a statement cuz if you want to make a statement, you—you casting judgment or something that God hasn't given you. But just leaving, you are doing something and you exercising your freedom. You—you bringing your family into what you believe is safe, which is huge, you know. But then you get some others who on the way out they've taken the justice pill or they offended and—and they throwing bombs. They are feeling like it's their mission in life to speak up. And—and so they begin to become solace and this becomes difficult because now as an elder, you stuck in a situation where—I maybe you can speak to about this too, but you stuck in a scenario where you've got a person who is firstly hurting you, but also hurting the church and trying to tear the church. So what do we do? What do you—what do you do in the scenario like it Jonathan?

You pray. Yes. [laughter] And hopefully as an elder, you're extending as much grace and mercy—

Yeah.

As—as possible. I think the reality is people will feel the pain of leaving. They maybe given their life to this church and poured all their as far as they're concerned resource into it. And they've heard the no. Basically, yes. I think that is the issue. They've heard the no and are struggling with that. Yeah, so you're trying to give them as much grace. You mean, you would have hoped it's a bit like when somebody dies, you know? It winds me up often that people need to put a caveat. Yes. Yeah, you know, I disagree with them on this and that and—and then you say, "But I pray for this family." Just no, you don't need the—

You don't need the raise up everything you thought was necessarily—

Not perfect or right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reality is, let's—let's just say for in many instances people will leave and then try to tear as much as possible and throw as much—

Yeah.

Mud at it. And you know, and my—my first line of responses I think I'm always trying to be gracious, Andrew.

Totally.

And I'm actually trying not to react. Yeah. And I'm praying, "Oh Lord, okay. They're obviously hurting. Hurt people hurt people."

Yes.

Let's just keep our mouths closed and with our leaders.

Yes.

You know, but already and here's where—here's some of the problems then—with their leaders, they're aware and we're—

Responding Biblically to Divisive Behavior

Taking asking God in perspective. Now, the Bible says warn a divisive person once, twice, then have nothing to do with them. You're trying in some ways, correct me, but trying if we cannot go there. Mhm. You know, obviously they're hurting if we cannot—it's as far as possible to not try and go there. Yes. Yeah. Uh and that's that can be a real mhm test. And then some of the other then you start to mean what I think I've heard from across the world is, you know, people saying things like,

Why Friendships Change After Leaving a Church

"I left that church and now nobody talks to me. Yeah. They they've told people not to talk to me." Here well, a couple of thoughts around that. First of all is, when you're fully embedded in the local church, your life is the church. It is very much. And you have these rhythms. I do this on a Sunday, I do this on a Wednesday, and maybe serving in this and that. And actually, you don't you don't actually have much margin to be—no, I'm trying to help people live in balanced and healthy ministry. You don't have much margin, and so your friendships actually are predominantly around the life of the church. So then this person that you used to spend a lot of time with has left and has gone to a church down the road, and you're hopefully the Lord bless you and get plugged in there. And then the story is kind of nobody's speaking to me anymore. Nobody's—but often it's just it's life, yeah. It's just the reality of life. We're in different spheres now.

Nobody has said, "Don't talk to this person," or "Don't talk to that person." But we're in different spheres now. And actually, I'd want you to get—I want you to use your free time to get plugged into your build new relationships in some ways. Yeah, because you in some ways you are doing life in a new body. You are grafted in somewhere else effectively. So it's kind of weird to think that you're still going to be doing life with that other body. And even though people might you might have some friendships, you're still not—it's never going to be quite the same because you you're living in two different worlds now in some ways. And then, if it is clear to your friends who aren't in the same congregation as you anymore that there's a bitterness coming out there. Then it gets complicated. Then it gets complicated, and and it's not that anybody says anything. I think in the first instance, let me be honest, if you are bitter, I don't want to have dinner with you, Andrew.

I know. Especially so it's like this, if you know, maybe you left the church and you thought you you got to know you left the church. And so I reach out to you because I just want to love you. And when I meet with you, you start subtly saying how horrible it was. And you're talking about leaders that I love and trust. And it's it's almost like you're talking about my wife now and you're saying my wife and kids are horrible. You know, "Last time you saw her she looked so ugly," and and it's so—I'm not enjoying this. Even if I'm sitting as your friend and I'm smiling and nodding, this is not a comfortable conversation for me. And I walking away from that, I'm probably going to be going, "I don't know if I want to do that again," because what you're trying to do is you're trying to you're trying to vindicate yourself. You're trying to you're trying to find an ally. You're trying to—but actually it's it's not helping me as an individual and so it it it causes people to draw away because it's no one wants to hear those things.

The Impact of Bitterness on Former Relationships

So as I travel the nations I whether it's our types of churches or other churches, these are common stories, you know, and I think those that have left need to realize there are different rhythms. Rarely have I ever heard of anybody being told in across the nations, "Don't have anything to do with that person," right? Not if they left well. Not if they—but eventually your friends—it's about like families, you know, there's some families and uh it's Thanksgiving or it's Christmas, we're going to meet together. I know. I can hear the video crew laughing here. Yeah, I know. Yeah, you know, and that's what it becomes like. I know they're going to bring this up. I know they're going to get all political. I know. I know. And actually I just want to have a good time with them. I just want to love on them. And so what some people don't realize is that who wants to be around a bitter root?

That defiles?

Many. Many. Like when I—I remember during the pandemic, the first time I got COVID, I'd taken the test in the morning. I'm all good, community group in my house. I thought I was in perfect health. I was carrying something and I didn't realize, and people caught what I had and like that was the most depressing two weeks of my life on the WhatsApp my community group. This one down, that one. People with major illnesses, they have come down with it. But I thought I was healthy, but I was leaking this.

Yeah. Mhm. You know, if we haven't processed well, yeah, that's what people are thinking. Nobody's saying anything, but if you have got something, yeah, and they were ready to kiss it off and it wasn't pleasant. All they did was vomit last time.

And I don't really—everybody's going through so much stuff. I know. And I know, for instance, in the rare occasion that anybody would leave my congregation, you know, I just want to bless them, yes, when they go. I want to speak well, yeah, of them. But sometimes people can't help themselves. Yeah. They, you know... um, but then when it comes against a local church, mhm, then again, as a last resort, if you've done everything and—and they are—they're still saying those things, mhm, you know, then it may be the leadership has to, you know, say like we need to warn you that we've done everything we can, but yeah, if they came back to the church, we would still have open arms for them.

Biblical Guidelines for Handling Accusations and Factions

100%. If—if a person comes to this—their senses and repents, you forgive as Christ has forgiven and you hold no record of wrongs. Yeah. And we do sometimes have to go that... I mean, even to be biblical, you know, warn a divisive man. And—and again, someone who's trying to create factions, who's trying to hurt, who's—who's um... Uh, you know, the Bible speaks about—there is something in the scripture and I know our culture is allergic to this, but we—we're not cultural, we're biblical. And the Bible says don't even entertain an accusation against an elder unless it's brought by two or more witnesses. And so there needs to be a—more of a fear. I think the pendulum has swung from "don't touch God's anointed" to—to—to people that are offended are now two witnesses and—and—and—and I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. There's—there's nuance here. There—there's layers here."

And there—in there needs to be a sense of work this through well. And again, I think the most powerful thing we can do sometimes is to live in the freedom that we have in Christ and to walk away. Just go, "I'm walking away. I can't—I can't—my conscience, I can't walk with you." And then when I leave people, I go, "Why did you leave?" "I just felt I saw things differently and I felt God's led me out," you know? And that's very easy to keep your bridges. And then don't every time you see someone be "why I disagree" and "why I think they're wrong," 'cause that's now starting to create... It's like telling kids in a family, "Your dad sucks and he's evil and I don't think he's treating your mom right," and-and it just becomes a faction.

The Importance of Apostolic Perspective in Church Discipline

And they—the church unfortunately does have to—even though it's culturally, you know, the culture's allergic to it—the church has to actually warn and even mark because that person is trying to tear the body of Christ. And again, I would say if you're a leader or in need and feeling you need to go down that road, because it's quite personal when you're the leader and you're the church, I don't think any leader should do that with even the plurality of elder—eldership. I don't think that eldership should do that without apostolic perspective. Because you're close to the rock face and it can become personal and the defensive, and you're in the power position, actually. You need to be very careful to do this in a way that is scriptural and honors God and honors the truth.

And so for me, I would in that context bring an apostolic voice in, um, who would—who would help the church and us navigate this so that we can say, you know, 'cause it become—it'll become about the elders. It'll become—that person will be throwing it back at the elders. "You—I love the church, it's the leaders. I love the people, it's the leaders." And so the leaders can't be the ones necessarily by themselves that just marks the man. But that man might need—

To be marked if he's not listening because he's actually destroying the body of Christ without—he's—and God hasn't raised him up to do that, you know? He's, uh, God has put things in the church to hold leaders to account. And I know the argument now is, "Well, there's no one holding leaders to account." And I'm thinking, "Well, if you're in a church where people aren't being held to account, find a church where leaders are going to be held to account." That's an unhealthy model. Don't join it. That's silly. But at the same time, find a model where leaders will be held to account and in that system, build within that framework. Um, and again, if you there feel you can't stay, then leave and leave well and find something where you can. Any last thoughts on that, Jonathan?

Extending Grace and Seeking Reconciliation

Yeah, again, it's—it's painful on all sides. And even though the leaders may be right, it's still painful. Or even though the saints may be right, it's painful. And so for the leaders, we need to do things the way of Jesus. Yeah. And for saints, we need to do things the way of Jesus. It's only going to be perfect in heaven. So there's a lot of grace that's—that—that's going to be needed to be extended. You know, I'm thankful in our congregations that, you know, you mess up—hopefully you're not in habitual sin—but you mess up week after week. And and people will extend to you grace. And I would encourage, you know, extend grace to one another with how we measure out. It's going to be measured out to us.

And if you're a local church leader, you know, you are a father in the house. The—the father of the prodigal had open arms, no matter what somebody's done, no matter how bad the fallout in the past. You know, we want to position ourselves that we are in a ministry of reconciliation. Not just reconciling men to God, but one to—one to another. And you know, I've seen those times when people have left and even left badly. And they've come home and it has been a home—homecoming and celebrate that. Such a joy. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

Living at Peace and the Stricter Judgment of Leaders

Yeah, as far as possible, live at peace, hey, and try and give people the freedom to walk out their conviction. We as far as possible with peace. Hard to restore love that—where we can to—to restore and ultimately to reflect Christ one to another. You know, we going to—we going to one day all stand before Jesus on that last day and we can stand before Him for the areas of authority that He's entrusted to us. And again, the greater the authority, there's definitely the greater the judgment. So leaders do give a stricter account and that's kind of a scary thing.

And so yes, if leaders abuse the authority and they don't do the due processes and they—God will hold them to account. So I would say the most terrifying thing—the Bible says don't fear him who can damage your reputation on social media. It doesn't say that but it implies that. Don't fear him who can even take your life. Fear Him who on that last day can take you and throw you into hell. And Jesus spoke very strongly to leaders but also to people who tore His body that He died for, you know. And so we got to have a—a deeper level of fear and trembling on these matters both from a leadership side but also from a people side and to do our best to reflect Christ, to walk with Christ and to ultimately—where all of us at some point will feel this injustice—to entrust ourselves to Him who's able to judge properly on that last day because on the day that it really matters, on judgment day, God will vindicate and God will condemn.

Living for the Day of Christ's Vindications

And it's that day that we live for even if people think we're totally stupid or we're total eggs or whatever it is, that's the day that we live for. And so up until then that we try and love, that we try and forgive, that we give people freedom, leaders freedom to live the way they want to but then I can't walk with you. I'm not in agreement. I'm—I'm—I'm finding someone who I can and then leave well. Or—but ideally here we find unity. We hold the unity and our churches hold together because we love Jesus, we love the Bible and we're moving in the right direction. Amen.